[Bobbi Jo]

Maybe some of you who've raised girls can help me figure this out.

I have three boys and a girl -- the boys were born within 18 mos of each other and DD is the baby, two years younger than the youngest boy. I think she's in a tough spot being the only girl and youngest . . . but, my word! Some days I am at my wits' end with her. She flies off the handle at the slightest provocation (sometimes all it takes is being asked to do a simple chore or getting looked at cross-eyed by one of her brothers). She starts shrieking, stomps off, slams her door, you name it. Two weeks ago she got into a rage and chopped off several inches of her hair (I thought of Michelle, but was too chagrined to mention it )

We try reasoning with her, but it doesn't work once she's started. We try time-outs, but she's on a hair-trigger and there's no escalation, just spontaneous ignition! She's a good girl otherwise, loving, eager to please, a good student, and always penitent after the storm . . . but these rages worry DH and me. How do you figure out if it's normal??? By the way, she's only EIGHT; where can it go from here?

I am just sick with worrying about it today -- we had a scene last night and my husband lost his temper (which I've only seen him do maybe three times our entire marriage).

[KBT]

Oh boy Bobbie! I wish I had some pearls of wisdom to help you! My dd is 7 and we dealt with some of these things when she was younger... she could throw a tantrum like no ones business! I do know there are some good books out there about behavior... let me see if I can locate them! (I look forward to seeing what others say!)

[floss]

I don't think there is one good answer to this.Our DS had a short fuse and I remember he went through a stage like this.There was no talking to him.We found the best way,and the hardest way,was not to respond or give any attention(either negative or positive)to the behaviour.When he stopped we responded.He went through a short time of throwing himself on the floor and kicked his heels.We just calmly stepped over him and left the room.Once he even stopped the tantrum,followed us to the other room,lay down and started again.We laugh about this now but it was really tiring and could cause friction.We found this worked.Turning the tables and not responding to bad behaviour was the key.
Chin up Bobbie,this too will pass.They say the youngest in the family always feels the need to strive harder for their place in the pecking order,perhaps this is what your little girl is doing,establishing herself with her older brothers but it is no fun for you and DH
Hugs Bobbie

[Smiles]

No children myself, but I was the youngest and have some empathy for your daughter.
I would check to make sure the older boys are not teasing her.
My brother is 10 years older, and used to tease me unmercifully. I don't think anyone (including him) realized how it was affecting me, but I was terrified. I also don't think he did the worst of it when anyone else was around. But a gesture (the cross eyed thing reminded me) seemed like an unspoken threat, and evoked the feelings of the worst teasing.
We have finally established an adult relationship, and I understand the stress he was under at the time. But it was really hard at the time.
I would discretely check to see if there's anything like that going on. Maybe if not with her brothers with someone at school or a neighbor?
Hope I'm way off on this...

[needadietcoke]

Phew! Am I glad I have boys!!! I would try to put myself in a situation where I could observe the other girls her age to try to decide if I thought that there was something unusual about her behavior. That is how I figured out that my son was "off"! I think that the girls are hitting the tween attitude and the woes of adolescence much earlier than we were, so I wouldn't be too worried. Hang on for a wild ride!

[Bobbi Jo]

There is a certain amount of teasing, Gayle, and I know that's part of the problem. Especially with her oldest brother, who is a text book "oldest child." I think a LOT of it has to do with birth order as well as gender and I've tried to enlist her brothers' help, stressing courtesy, kindness, etc. . . . but I will definitely watch their interactions more closely.

[Shelbi]

Well I do not have girls so I'm no help there.
I do remember being a girl and having a horrible temper LOL.
I think I always felt like no one understood me or listened to me.
I agree with the teasing. I STILL respond badly to it. LOL. Unless it is a good friend who I know is only joking, my DH on the other hand drives me crazy.
I agree too with the ignoring it. When my youngest (the one who cut his hair) is naughty I know he is doing to get attention. I do no like to reward bad behavior.

[Bobbi Jo]

LOL Kaye. When my boys were toddlers and non-stop motion machines, a friend told me "someday you'll be glad you had boys." I was dying for a girl and wondered what she was talking about! Now that the boys are older and we're dealing with this, I know what she was talking about

[Smiles]

I'm trying to think of what I would have liked to have happen...
Even if I knew that my mother was aware and disapproved of the teasing, it would have helped.
Maybe some assertiveness skills?
The trouble with not addressing it is, a girl can internalize really dangerous messages like, this is what guys do, I am stuck with it, and later fall prey to an abusive situation.
I'm sure your sons are not in the league my brother was, but just want to spread awareness.
Will be sending good thoughts your way!

[PhotoshopScrapper]

Bobbi,

My youngest DD is 9 and we do have some of the issues you're speaking of. She does seem to have a hair trigger at some times. We've been able to combat it SOMEWHAT successfully if we (DH and I) are on top and paying attention. I've come to the conclusion that DD doesn't like losing control. As a matter of fact, when she dose lose control it makes her feel worse. Therefore, when we start to notice she's teetering on the edge (and believe me there's about 30 seconds if we're lucky from teetering to full blown tantrum) if we say something to her like 'you are losing control, calm down and regain control' it works somewhat. The more you can catch it the better.

With this same DD we also have lots of difficulty with homework. I think this is subconscious for her. Her older sis gets straight A's without hardly breaking a sweat. My younger one is certainly capable of the same but she has to work at it a little more. She gets frustrated easily and homework can become a battle of immense proportion. What I've started doing there is again, getting to her before she's lost total control and forcing her (and yes, sometimes this means taking all the homework away and not letting her near it) to take a break. You should see some of the letters she's written to her teachers (they've never seen them thankfully). It's hard to hold a straight face when there's a big not with a huge crying face pictured on it that says 'Mrs. so and so, I couldn't do my homework because my mother took it away from me and wouldn't let me do it.'

The key for us is making sure you're paying attention and on top of her moods and can pick them off before it's too late.

Talk to your DD during the calm after the storm. See if she feels similar to my DD in that she doesn't like feeling out of control and ask her what you can do to help her maintain control of herself.

Another factor that could (maybe) be going on .... is your DD by any change pre-pubescent? My DD above has been diagnosed as pre-pubescent (she started developing about about the age of 7.5). Not totally noticeable by outsiders but we know what's going on. Girls have a rough time handling that as teenagers and I think my youngest is having a harder time because at times she really doesn't have a clue why she is feeling the way she does even though we've explained the facts to her ... still it's hard when they're young.

Hope some of this helps!

Denise

PS - if you think I can be of more help and you want to PM me ... please don't hesitate. I don't have any boys so can't help you with them but your DD sounds very much like my youngest.

[April Showers]

Well, I have 3 girls and they are all pretty good. I had three older brothers and I can say that my girls are a whole lot easier than they were for my parents. I did take my third daughter to a psychiatrist several years ago when she was "crying for no reason" but some of the behaviors you are describing is what the psychiatric nurse practitioner she visited with called "melt-downs." I wish I'd taken my second daughter when she was that age too because she learned valuable skills in learning to deal them. Her triggers were somewhat different than what you describe but they were always stress and anxiety induced. It was not cheap, but I would spend every penny again in a heartbeat for the difference it made in my daughter's life.

[jeschaff]

As an only daughter with two biological brothers and two foster brothers and an uncle and a father in the house, I can totally relate to your daughter. What I would have given a lot for was some one-on-one time with my mother, away from the male-ness of our household. Perhaps you need to make time to take your DD out, just the two of you, have lunch or dinner, do some shopping, do some talking, whatever.

I don't know if this will help, but it's certainly worth a try. I just wouldn't do it on the heels of a tantrum because that would reward the tantrum.

[Burnsie]

Bobbie,

We are much alike...I have three boys and my DD is the youngest. Although she is only 5, we have had a few incidents like you described. She cut her hair also, and told me that it was because of something I did. But when I told her how it didn't bother me, since it was her hair and not mine, she changed her attitude. She has broken toys, and then we required her to buy a new one if it belonged to someone else, or throw it away herself if it was hers, with full knowledge that she would not ever get a replacement.

With all of our children, we have done the "go to your room, no tv, no toys, no books, do not pass go, do not collect $200, and don't come out until you are ready to be a postitive family member." It has worked because afterwards, they have more consequences that cannot be negotiated, or dummed down with good behavior later. There is a penalty, it is strict, and enforced by both parents. We have done it a few times, and since they know we are dead serious, they fall in line. Now, if one child is heading down that road, the others will try to warn him/her of the impending doom-even if they are on the opposite side of the argument!

I have addressed the slamming doors, banging on tables, etc. in this manner. "When you do that, you are disrespecting me, and the hard work I have done to provide you with a nice home and nice things. If I went into your room and slammed my fist on your (whatever it is they hold near and dear), you would be devastated. I would never disrespect you and your hard work that way, and I will not allow you to disrespect me." That really changes their perspective, and that behavior has ended.

Parenting is tough, so sometimes you must be a tough parent. Kids will resist and react worse when you first start a disciplinary strategy, but that is natural. Require them to modify their behavior, instead of you accommodating their behavior, by being consistent. It may take some time, but you and you DH stick together on this and you'll see change.

We've been through the same issues as you-ours just started at an earlier age. But it's gotten better, and I haven't had to reveal my iron fist in a while!
Hang in there! You are not alone!

[Bobbi Jo]

I feel so much better just hearing others' experiences! I know consistency is one thing we need to work on . . . and paying attention to the danger signs that signal impending explosion (not always easy in a busy house, but necessary!)

Thank you so much -- the moral support alone is worth gold to me.

[anna]

I can completely relate. My daughter is like this to a great extent. She is so smart and loving and fun, and then all of the sudden, she will completely fall apart, throwing temper tantrums that any two year old would be proud of. A book that really helped me and my husband is "Parenting with Love and Logic" by Foster Cline and Jim Fay. I liked it because it gave us consistency. Both my husband and I agreed to follow their method. The book put us both on the same page (no pun intended. ). That helped a lot. now the kids know that if we say yes, we mean yes. And if we say No, we mean no. If I say, you have 5 minutes to get your shoes on or you can walk to the car barefooted, they know that I mean it (good thing it's not a long walk to the car....). Consistency, for both good consequences and bad consequences is so important.

Another thing that helps is that we work really hard to teach her coping skills. When she is getting close to a melt down, remind her of some skills she could use. And after a melt down, when she's calming down, talk about better ways of expressing frustration or anger. It is starting to help. making sure that she has the words (and feels comfortable) to tell me "I am angry because this happened." Like this morning, I asked her to get dressed. She went into her room and came out wearing a short sleeved play dress. There are 8 inches of snow on the ground. A play dress wasn't going to work today. when I asked her to change, she started to throw a temper tantrum, screaming at me, kicking the floor, refusing to change. But then, she took a deep breath, and said, "I am frustrated because you said I had to get dressed and there are no clean pants in my drawer." It was all she could do to say that, but it was enough. I got her some pants out of the dryer and she got dressed. But, a few months ago, she wouldn't have been able to control herself long enough to say what was wrong. By teaching her to say "I am frustrated because" "I am sad because" "I am angry because" things are getting better.

Everyone says that boys are easier...I hope so!

[siskitkat]

I've been through the temper issue with my oldest son (7), and dd (5). They both have TEMPERS. A book that helped our oldest is Mad is Not Bad.
During the pre-adoption counseling, the counselor suggested color colding the emotions. That way, he could say what color he was feeling, and be treated accordingly. We didn't try it, but I'll throw it out there for you.

[sheilaj]

PhotoshopScrapper, on Dec 17 2008, 06:42 PM, said:

Bobbi,

My youngest DD is 9 and we do have some of the issues you're speaking of. She does seem to have a hair trigger at some times. We've been able to combat it SOMEWHAT successfully if we (DH and I) are on top and paying attention. I've come to the conclusion that DD doesn't like losing control. As a matter of fact, when she dose lose control it makes her feel worse. Therefore, when we start to notice she's teetering on the edge (and believe me there's about 30 seconds if we're lucky from teetering to full blown tantrum) if we say something to her like 'you are losing control, calm down and regain control' it works somewhat. The more you can catch it the better.

The key for us is making sure you're paying attention and on top of her moods and can pick them off before it's too late.

Talk to your DD during the calm after the storm. See if she feels similar to my DD in that she doesn't like feeling out of control and ask her what you can do to help her maintain control of herself.


Hope some of this helps!

Denise

PS - if you think I can be of more help and you want to PM me ... please don't hesitate. I don't have any boys so can't help you with them but your DD sounds very much like my youngest.

Apologies for precising you reply Denise, but I was that child. From the inside, you literally have no control over what is happening, it feels like the anger is picking you up and shaking you by the scruff of the neck...like PMS temper. Looking back, triggers were being tired, low blood sugar, stress (had IBS as well but no one had heard of it then), overstimulation and feeling frustrated when what I wanted to do was way ahead of my ability. Not to boast but to comfort you, my teen years were actually quite calm, I didn't go off the rails, and as I got older and more able to control myself, the tempers faded and never resurfaced until menopause when I tried HRT for a short period. (bad, bad idea!) I can't remember what my parents did to help me but I do remember going off to my room to have my temper out alone - by my choice, not sent there, which did help.

[Becca]

Oh Bobbi, I know the feeling. Here we have THREE girls in the house, and each one is a drama queen. It's exhausting some days, and I have no clue where it comes from. I was anything but a drama queen when I was younger - I was your classic tomboy.

But I have no advice for you, just wanted you to know that I've just come to the conclusion "it's normal". Sigh.

[Becca]

Burnsie, on Dec 17 2008, 02:19 PM, said:

With all of our children, we have done the "go to your room, no tv, no toys, no books, do not pass go, do not collect $200, and don't come out until you are ready to be a postitive family member." It has worked because afterwards, they have more consequences that cannot be negotiated, or dummed down with good behavior later. There is a penalty, it is strict, and enforced by both parents. We have done it a few times, and since they know we are dead serious, they fall in line. Now, if one child is heading down that road, the others will try to warn him/her of the impending doom-even if they are on the opposite side of the argument!

I have addressed the slamming doors, banging on tables, etc. in this manner. "When you do that, you are disrespecting me, and the hard work I have done to provide you with a nice home and nice things. If I went into your room and slammed my fist on your (whatever it is they hold near and dear), you would be devastated. I would never disrespect you and your hard work that way, and I will not allow you to disrespect me." That really changes their perspective, and that behavior has ended.

Julie,

I wish we've had as much success with this same theory. We do the same things, but our kids don't seem to get it. I'm not even sure they comprehend the word "disrespect", and it's the older two I mean here - they're almost 10!

Seriously, DH and I and his ex wife and her DH have been putting our heads together trying to figure it out and where we went wrong. Any ideas for us?

[PhotoshopScrapper]

sheilaj, on Dec 18 2008, 05:03 AM, said:

PhotoshopScrapper, on Dec 17 2008, 06:42 PM, said:

Bobbi,

My youngest DD is 9 and we do have some of the issues you're speaking of. She does seem to have a hair trigger at some times. We've been able to combat it SOMEWHAT successfully if we (DH and I) are on top and paying attention. I've come to the conclusion that DD doesn't like losing control. As a matter of fact, when she dose lose control it makes her feel worse. Therefore, when we start to notice she's teetering on the edge (and believe me there's about 30 seconds if we're lucky from teetering to full blown tantrum) if we say something to her like 'you are losing control, calm down and regain control' it works somewhat. The more you can catch it the better.

The key for us is making sure you're paying attention and on top of her moods and can pick them off before it's too late.

Talk to your DD during the calm after the storm. See if she feels similar to my DD in that she doesn't like feeling out of control and ask her what you can do to help her maintain control of herself.


Hope some of this helps!

Denise

PS - if you think I can be of more help and you want to PM me ... please don't hesitate. I don't have any boys so can't help you with them but your DD sounds very much like my youngest.

Apologies for precising you reply Denise, but I was that child. From the inside, you literally have no control over what is happening, it feels like the anger is picking you up and shaking you by the scruff of the neck...like PMS temper. Looking back, triggers were being tired, low blood sugar, stress (had IBS as well but no one had heard of it then), overstimulation and feeling frustrated when what I wanted to do was way ahead of my ability. Not to boast but to comfort you, my teen years were actually quite calm, I didn't go off the rails, and as I got older and more able to control myself, the tempers faded and never resurfaced until menopause when I tried HRT for a short period. (bad, bad idea!) I can't remember what my parents did to help me but I do remember going off to my room to have my temper out alone - by my choice, not sent there, which did help.

Sheila,

Thanks for that comfort ... and it IS a comfort knowing that she will (and has shown some signs) eventually even out. She has evened out somewhat over the past year or so but it was REALLY rough going for a while. I do think at times she is frustrated by wanting to do something her older sis can do but can't match up because it's beyond her ability (there's 4 years between them). She's catching up in ability at this point and that might have something to do with it. Some of your other triggers also apply at times although we've dubbed her the Energizer Bunny because the only time she slows down is when she's sick.

The other thing we did (for different reasons but this side benefit is very nice) was to move Kerry to a different school where none of the teachers had ever heard of her older sister. We made the move because the first school was just way to small for her. Both my DDs attend Catholic school and the first one has diminished a great deal since Morgan started (there were 6 kids in Kerry's grade when we moved her). I think in the new school she doesn't feel the need as much to live up to what Morgan has accomplished, she's pushed a bit more because the teachers can't coddle her (there are 23 kids in her class now), and she's seeing that she can rise to the occassion. Because no one there has ever heard of Morgan and no comparisons can be drawn (not that any were ever verbalized to her in the first school ... to me the ONE teacher that had them both shocked me by saying Kerry was smarter than Morgan - Morgan has a 97 average - so my draw literally dropped when the first grade teacher said that and I've never even told my husband of that conversation). I didn't see it in first grade because Kerry struggled but I am seeing the possibility now ... manifesting in some ways I wasn't too crazy about so am working issues with her.

It's very comforting to hear the POSITIVE outcome of someone who's temperament at a young age is very similar to daughter's.

Thank you!

Denise

[Burnsie]

Becca,

The difficult thing about those words like "disrespect" that they are attributes and characteristics that are not tangible, but exemplified through behavior.

The key is to start teaching them. Just sit them down and let it out. "Kids, we are having a serious issue with your behavior. I don't feel that you have the proper amount of respect for me that I deserve, and it makes it hard for me to respect you. I realize that you do not fully understanding what respect is and how to show it, but I am taking the responsibility now to teach you. It is your responsibilty (or duty, or job) to take what I teach you and use it. Respect means that you see the value in another person, that you honor their worth. I value you, and you are worth very much to me. I know that you value me too, we just need to show it better. Here's how we are going to start...."

Set some basic groundrules like answering with "sir" or "ma'am." Help them at first by prompting. I would say to my son, "Did you have a good day at school, sir?" Then he responds with ma'am. If he doesn't, I simply repeat the question, and emphasize the "sir." I don't lose my cool or break the vibe of the conversation by overtly correcting him. And I don't say "sir" with sarcasm-I mean it and say it sincerely. Then he ususally responds appropriately. And your kids will understand that you are paying them respect too.

Then, to jump start this, you have to have a reward. It can be as little a choosing a treat at the grocery checkout. You can track their success by using a calendar. Set a reasonable expectation, to be evaluated EVERY DAY (consistency!) Your expectation for the first week might be to answer with "sir" or "ma'am" at least half the time, with or without prompt. Each day, check if each child did or did not. If they are successful, they get the reward and you up the expectation for the next week. Even though you evaluate every day, the reward is at the end of the week. Eventually, it becomes regular behavior and you move onto something else.

Start gradual-people resist change! But be consistent, once you start, you must follow it through. And since you have more than one household involved, make sure your expectations are the same, and enforced. Finally, reinforce positive behavior! When they bahve the way you want, praise them! "Thank you for your respectful attitude. I am proud of you for your effort."

Hope that gives you some help. PM me if you need any other ideas.

[Becca]

I'm going to show DH this, and talk it over with Brooklynn's mom tonight. Thanks, Julie! This may be just what we needed - Josh's teacher in school has been doing the "sir" thing all year. I never thought of carrying it over to our home.

BTW, still got a chuckle out of your signature though. Ironic that I was seriously thinking of making a layout of my kids with some very similar saying this morning! LOL

[sheriL]

Our 2nd dd (she's 8 as well) has always been "spirited". I have to admit a lot of what has helped me has been adjusting my view. Not that its ok to throw the over-the-top, unbelievable temper tantrums, but to realize more where she's coming from. I've had to learn that the things that seem small to most people really aren't to her. I've learned to appreciate that the extreme temper is balanced out be an amazing amount of enthusiasm for life. She can throw a temper tantrum like no one I've ever seen before, but she can also light up a room with her smile.
Knowing that she isn't just having the melt down to spite me helps me to keep my cool so I can help her deal with what she's feeling. I've also learned that while most of my kids need to be ignored when the temper kicks in, she often needs to be held more than anything. She needs to have someone there. It's almost like those extreme emotions are just too much for her to contain in that little body, and so having someone there helps to calm her.
She is getting better, and the complete losses of control happen much less than they used to. I think it has come with age. The wonderful thing is, as she has learned to express her frustrations more appropriately, we get to see more of the incredible joy she feels to balance out the lows.